Competing with computers and teams.

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poppafred
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:15 am
Location: Arkansas

Competing with computers and teams.

Post by poppafred »

I want to know how others feel about competing against computer programs and relay teams to find tracks.

Personally, I am ready to give up.

I mean, how can a single human being who is looking for tracks manually compare to a computer or a team that spits out information 24/7 without a break? A computer doesn't have to eat or sleep. It's eyes don't get tired. Teams aren't much better.

It really perturbs me to think that all I am accomplishing is cleaning up behind a computer or a team, verifying or denying accuracy. And that is really all I am getting done. They go through the videos and mark anything that even remotely looks like a track and the rest of us are going through the motions by confirming or denying the results.

So, why bother?

If "winning" the search is all that matters, let the computers and teams do it. Why take my time to clean up their mess. My total of viewed movies is only 581 with a score of 141, how can I possibly achieve anything against a computer with a score of 52,000?

Seems to me a computer or a team violates the entire idea of getting humans to look for tracks.

And if "winning" is so important that people work a single computer in shifts, how many of the "hits" are just people trying to rack up a high score?

I thought this was all about science and discovery, not top scores.

Maybe I was wrong.

Fred

Wolter
DustMod
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 2:23 am
Location: Enkhuizen, the Netherlands

Post by Wolter »

Well your not wrong. It is all about science.

The scoring mechanisme has been setup with two thought in mind. One to give the team a way of measuring the effectness of the volunteers and two to start a little competition in order to stimulate those who are sensetive to competition to join the project.

It is your choice to which category you want to belong. I am in it for the science. I have viewed allmost 8000 real movies and that still amounts only to a position in the top 400. Who cares?
I have 9 passed cut 1 and allmost 40 stil to be determind that's what counts.

So i say, go on, keep on searching untill we have found all tracks.

And who knows, perhaps you are a lucky....

Happy hunting.
Just dusting... Image

Nikita
DustMod
Posts: 994
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 8:33 pm
Location: Indiana, USA

Post by Nikita »

Fred,

I understand what you are saying. It could seem like we are just following after someone else.

Take heart! We are not cleaning up after a team or a program. Even if it were set up to have initial scanning done by a program (which it isn't and never was set up that way), one analysis does not give total weight. In a way, many of us are the clean up after the heavy searchers look through the movies. I don't think I was the first on any of my events. Well, except for in the beginning when I clicked on one of the stooges or after reviewing, I don't know what I thought I saw! Nonetheless, I have good percentages and I know that my searching helps to validate the score of the movie and narrow the searching down to the most important ones to find the dust faster. One could even go farther and say that, with the limited amount of particles expected to be in there, most of our work is validating what others have seen or have what we saw validated. There will never be enough computer programs or teams to make all the individuals on the project unnecessary.

For me, a computer program or team involved doesn't affect what I do and when I look at it being necessary to have it all rechecked, I don't really mind. If winning is all that someone is about, then I think they will get burnt out very quickly. So far, most of the high scorers have justified their ability to get a high score mainly by having the time to commit to it. Most of us don't have that kind of time, so we have to accept that they do and are doing it, so in the end, it's good for the project.

I don't know if that helps make you feel better, but I hope so!
From dust we come

the moon
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:34 am

Post by the moon »

Relax man. Any computer program is not going to do a good job finding tracks, no matter how "fast" it is, it's not going to help the project at all. And a team of, say 5 people, can't search any better or faster then 5 independant people. They post the top 100 scorers for purely personal motivation. Getting a high score is just for fun, none of them win anything. The only "prize" is naming rights, and you have just as good a chance as anyone of winning that, times the number of movies you view of course.

Driven1
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:27 am

On Programs and Teams...

Post by Driven1 »

PoppaFred,

It's all about the science. Period. Even the computer programs you mentioned are about the science. They have been an attempt by programmers to identify tracks and nothing more. This has been admitted by those that have tried, and those that are trying. No one knows whether those programs are actually all that successful at weeding out tracks from all of the other possibilities in focus movies. The only thing that we do know about these programs is that they're very good at chomping their way through movies. My personal concern is that they may actually be hurting the project from a statistical and workload point of view. It's not the programmers that are scrutinizing whether their programs are actually successful or not. It's the team of researchers who determine if what their programs flagged as tracks really are or not. The researchers have decided to allow these programming attempts for now for possible future applications.

Teams are nothing more than individuals really. The only difference is that if a team does happen to be the 1st to find a confirmed track then all of those on the team will have their names included in the discovery papers. Kinda like a group of workers going in on a lottery ticket and winning. My argument is this, what's sweeter, splitting the winnings or having them all to yourself?

As far as the scoring and ranking system goes, I never did like it. There's way too many variables involved. An individual's time available, broadband as opposed to dial-up, a pentium 2 compared to a pentium 4, monitor quality, screen resolution capability, Programs, Teams, etc. The ability to blast through movies means nothing without the ability to identify tracks properly. Knowing that the movies are doled out randomly, anyone has the possibility of getting a first to find. I concentrate on doing a good job and keeping my quality statistics up. My Rank has suffered lately due to a lack of time created by personal events. I've found that it's VERY difficult to get back where I was. All I need to know though is that I'm trying my best at doing the science. (as tedious as it may seem) That's all that really matters here.

Those that are here for a score or thier names on a piece of paper clearly don't understand what this project is really about and its possible implications to science and physics. Identification of tracks is just the very beginning. Think of this. How many years ago was it that rocks were brought back from the surface of our moon? Those rocks are still being studied today!

As was recently stated, we're nearly at 1/4 of the aerogel scanned and new movies are being uploaded everyday. That means there's 3/4's of the aerogel to go yet. It was said that 20 Million movies have already been reviewed. That means that there's another 60 million to go. That's a lot of lottery tickets!

So Fred, we're not the clean-up crew. We're the ones that keep it honest. Forget the scoring system. You have just as good a chance at finding a real track as a program or team does whether you have a high score or not. And if you're in it for the science, glad to have ya!

xxxxxy
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:11 pm
Location: Slovenia
Contact:

Post by xxxxxy »

As was recently stated, we're nearly at 1/4 of the aerogel scanned and new movies are being uploaded everyday. That means there's 3/4's of the aerogel to go yet. It was said that 20 Million movies have already been reviewed. That means that there's another 60 million to go. That's a lot of lottery tickets!
No, is only 1,6 milion movies.

DiamondGirl
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:16 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Competing with computers and teams.

Post by DiamondGirl »

poppafred wrote:I want to know how others feel about competing against computer programs and relay teams to find tracks.

I mean, how can a single human being who is looking for tracks manually compare to a computer or a team that spits out information 24/7 without a break? A computer doesn't have to eat or sleep. It's eyes don't get tired. Teams aren't much better.
Personally, I find it rather an enjoyable challenge. I like the opportunity to prove that the human mind really is the best computer out there. :)

Remember, faster isn't necessarily better. As the person who designed a program was kind enough to share with us, the computer didn't find some that many of us human searchers have. I think this shows that our powers of discernment go beyond what a computer program can do.

And as for the teams - they're just human individuals like us, they just happen to be working in sync. In my opinion, being the first to view a slide doesn't mean you'll be the first to notice something. I keep going for just the reason you mentioned - science. I think it's important that those of us going slower and (possibly) paying closer attention might catch what others missed, and give us all the opportunity to research something we might not have otherwise.

I'm sure many other great scientific finds have included a lot of frustration. The important thing is to keep going so one day someone can say... "well thank goodness that person kept searching, or we might never have found it!" :D

Although I do wish I could avoid the bleary eye syndrome. :shock: LOL

john weeks
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:55 am

Dude, lighten up.

Post by john weeks »

If you feel cheated, you should move on .

We are doing this for the noble cause of science, not to garner fame and riches. We're all winners for just being trusted to help out and not screw it up.

I myself am happy to play against teams and computers. The better my ranking, the better I feel I'm doing against THEM. That's all that's important to me now. Bring on the cheaters!

Now, where was I .....oh yeah, this is worse than tetris.

If you don't hear back from me in 24 hours, send help.

fjgiie
DustMod
Posts: 1253
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 8:47 am
Location: Hampton, SC, US

Tetanus

Post by fjgiie »

Hi john,

That's tje Spirit - And I agree with your other point...ahh what was it? OH Yeah, this is worse than Tetanus.

#2 serial killer has been shut down, and I have only heard of one team out there, a father and son two man team and no others unless you want to count school classes. The father and son team was only talked about before the virtual microscope started up. #1 we have a picture of, one person only, and #3 was checked for honesty and found to be clean.

So, try it for three or four months and see how you do.

Thanks,

fjgiie

ps: john, where to search for you if you don't come back?
f

john weeks
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:55 am

Not Tetanus! I said Tinnutus.

Post by john weeks »

Are your ears ringin' ?

South Eastern NC.

short sleeves.

Howie
Posts: 331
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:47 pm
Location: Florida

Good Post!!!

Post by Howie »

Hi There All,

You have a choice, be honest and do it for science or go for a score!!!

Yes, those of you that started this program recently are way down on rank, and yes those of us like myself, since the very start are up there!

I do it by myself, one computer, one screen etc...I could go on my other computers ( 2 more) and have someone else do it! No, they have not learned what I have and do it if you want rank!!!

You still have to spend time one way or the other, your choice!!!

I have been at this since day one and working as much as I have tme for and this is where I am at!!!
*********************************

Statistics for Howie

Your Overall Score: 7675
Total Movies Viewed: 28428
Your Rank: 115 out of 18828
Specificity: 98.11%
Sensitivity: 99.52%
*********************************
Takes time and really wanting to do this for the right reason...

Howie

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