I hope these new discoverys will........................

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Siegfried
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Post by Siegfried »

Too true... :? :shock:
And God said: E = +mv^2 - Ze^2/r ...and there *WAS* light!

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Nikita
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Post by Nikita »

I have watched this post as I can with my cable connection flickering in and out at will. I may be going out on a limb here, and I may isolate myself from several people, but...

What if, a higher power used evolution to create all things. Why does evoluion have to be purely scientific and not a plan created by that being? Why would a higher being create such a wonderful place like Earth and the beyond with it's intricate balance of life and the forces of nature and not use that to create man? Would this be acceptable to people if we "came" from a more "noble" creature like a horse? To think that, with all the time that so many species have had, we have in such a short period of time, managed to completely dominate and become such an intellectual species, when none other had before. Could we have be "designed" to become that and not the others. Evolution is so amazing, the diversity of all species on earth so complex, to think that it all is just random seems as increaible as the statistics that say I'm not here!
So that leads to the 7 day thing. Well, if you don't take it literally, it could be a message that we took time, we weren't over night. And that we were the last.
I don't know if I am making my point well. But to me evolution and creation do not have to be opposed to each other, they can compliment each other. A religious person could say, "God exists, evolution was his/her tool". A scientist could say, "Evolution is an amazing process God used to create all things."
If looked at this way, perhaps more of us could begin to appreciate both sides. Creation & evolution. We came from the monkeys? Not quite. But hey, at least we share the same lines with them and not a cockroach!

On a side, I once worked as a camp counselor at a YMCA. As we waited for some parents to get their children, the kids noticed some ants on the gym floor. They started stomping on them. To his horror another counselor saw this and coming to my group and giving me a dirty look, he told the kids that the Ants are God's creatures and we should not kill them. I thought, "Hey! Ants are God's Doritos, crunch all you want, He'll make more!" (You've gotta be in your 30's or more to get that one!)
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Nikita
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Post by Nikita »

One last little note,

The more we learn, the more we find we don't know. For all our brilliance, we have just scratched the surface of everything! This project may answer some questions, but it will bring up lots more questions. When we look at how incredible and amazing it all is, it becomes even more incredible to think that it wasn't "just science" but if this were actually all planned out, WOW! And to think it was done without being printed out for our review, but we have to earn the ability and knowledge to get it!
I'm rambelling now...can't sleep...sorry.
From dust we come

Siegfried
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Post by Siegfried »

Nikita wrote:I have watched this post as I can with my cable connection flickering in and out at will. I may be going out on a limb here, and I may isolate myself from several people, but...

What if, a higher power used evolution to create all things. Why does evoluion have to be purely scientific and not a plan created by that being? Why would a higher being create such a wonderful place like Earth and the beyond with it's intricate balance of life and the forces of nature and not use that to create man? Would this be acceptable to people if we "came" from a more "noble" creature like a horse? To think that, with all the time that so many species have had, we have in such a short period of time, managed to completely dominate and become such an intellectual species, when none other had before. Could we have be "designed" to become that and not the others. Evolution is so amazing, the diversity of all species on earth so complex, to think that it all is just random seems as increaible as the statistics that say I'm not here!
So that leads to the 7 day thing. Well, if you don't take it literally, it could be a message that we took time, we weren't over night. And that we were the last.
I don't know if I am making my point well. But to me evolution and creation do not have to be opposed to each other, they can compliment each other. A religious person could say, "God exists, evolution was his/her tool". A scientist could say, "Evolution is an amazing process God used to create all things."
If looked at this way, perhaps more of us could begin to appreciate both sides. Creation & evolution. We came from the monkeys? Not quite. But hey, at least we share the same lines with them and not a cockroach!

On a side, I once worked as a camp counselor at a YMCA. As we waited for some parents to get their children, the kids noticed some ants on the gym floor. They started stomping on them. To his horror another counselor saw this and coming to my group and giving me a dirty look, he told the kids that the Ants are God's creatures and we should not kill them. I thought, "Hey! Ants are God's Doritos, crunch all you want, He'll make more!" (You've gotta be in your 30's or more to get that one!)
This is my exact thinking. I just wonder why people have to be so split up about it.
And God said: E = +mv^2 - Ze^2/r ...and there *WAS* light!

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Aquila Hawk
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Post by Aquila Hawk »

Nikita wrote:I have watched this post as I can with my cable connection flickering in and out at will. I may be going out on a limb here, and I may isolate myself from several people, but...

What if, a higher power used evolution to create all things. Why does evoluion have to be purely scientific and not a plan created by that being? Why would a higher being create such a wonderful place like Earth and the beyond with it's intricate balance of life and the forces of nature and not use that to create man? Would this be acceptable to people if we "came" from a more "noble" creature like a horse? To think that, with all the time that so many species have had, we have in such a short period of time, managed to completely dominate and become such an intellectual species, when none other had before. Could we have be "designed" to become that and not the others. Evolution is so amazing, the diversity of all species on earth so complex, to think that it all is just random seems as increaible as the statistics that say I'm not here!
So that leads to the 7 day thing. Well, if you don't take it literally, it could be a message that we took time, we weren't over night. And that we were the last.
I don't know if I am making my point well. But to me evolution and creation do not have to be opposed to each other, they can compliment each other. A religious person could say, "God exists, evolution was his/her tool". A scientist could say, "Evolution is an amazing process God used to create all things."
If looked at this way, perhaps more of us could begin to appreciate both sides. Creation & evolution. We came from the monkeys? Not quite. But hey, at least we share the same lines with them and not a cockroach!

On a side, I once worked as a camp counselor at a YMCA. As we waited for some parents to get their children, the kids noticed some ants on the gym floor. They started stomping on them. To his horror another counselor saw this and coming to my group and giving me a dirty look, he told the kids that the Ants are God's creatures and we should not kill them. I thought, "Hey! Ants are God's Doritos, crunch all you want, He'll make more!" (You've gotta be in your 30's or more to get that one!)
Actually, I always thought of it that way. The Bible (for one) says that God created the earth in 7 days, but it never quite says by what tools. Think of it like that, and it's no less miraculous. Evolution is an amazing and quite frankly mysterious biological force that took bacteria and brought it up to the vast and abundant environments of today. Also, despite Darwin's personal conflict, there is nothing in "Origin of Spiecies" that removes a potential "God" factor. Basically, to those who are deeply religious, if a higher power did create all of the universe, that means he/she created all of Science as well. However, that's just how I personally see it.
Everyone talks about SOH CAH TOA, but no one ever talks about CHO SHA CAO.

Alex41
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Post by Alex41 »

Our evolution involved unexpected surprises and luck. When the Earth first formed, its ecosystem was primitive and Earth's atmosphere is not same as today's. Suddenly, a moon-sized object collided with the Earth, destroying both, the Earth healed after that and the debrises formed into Earth's moon. Earth again create a new ecosystem to adapt to the change and Earth's atmosphere is now different from old one. The second ecosystem including dinosaurs, the most advanced life-form in that time. But again, the large meteorite collided the Earth, destroying the ecosystem again. Earth create a new ecosystem again which included humans to adapt those new changes and Earth's atmosphere changed too. But there is Earth's moon, which have a huge impact on human evolution and Earth's rotation axis. Moon is there to stabilizes the tilt of the Earth's axis which to let the Earth to have a stable seasons. Without the moon, there will be no humans and the life on Earth will be no more than primitive bacteria.

Some of them are just a theory and may be not accurate but the original Earth and its original ecology's most advanced life form is a simple bacteria. The human race didn't exist at that time due the absent of the moon and suitable environment on the Earth. The presence of the moon and periodic extinction events that have rebooted the Earth's ecology several times caused the appearance of the human race.

Verenique
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Post by Verenique »

Ferrum wrote:I'm curious...for those of you on this board who do not believe that evolution could have occurred without the assistance of a higher power, what is your rational for participating in this search? Considering that the discovery of interstellar dust grains will "yield important insights into the evolution of the Sun its planets and possibly even the origin of life itself," why do you wish to further the cause of those who believe in evolution of the universe, biological entities, and intelligence? A significant part of this project is focused on cementing even further the scientific foundation for the evolution of our solar system...why assist such an endeavor?
Ferrum, there's a misunderstanding lurking in your words.

First of all I hope you don't suppose that anyone not so sure about evolutional theory has no place in science or scientific exploration, do you?
On the other hand, the few hard-minded people that like to thing about God as an end to all questions, well they exclude themselves from activities of the like - they don't need assistance by anyone!

So, this leaves us few, not so sure or supportive of evolutional theories to answer your question:

First of all, geological or generally space evolution is something quite different from biological evolution. You seem to believe that if geological evolution is true then biological evolution should be true too. A good point but neither proved nor an axiom. When someone states "I believe life is not the outcome of an evolution but the result of a creation" he is not obliged to believe that universe was created in an instance, as we see it now. Even the bible itself gives an evolutionary essence in the story of earth-making. An essence missing altogether from the narration about life's creation! (Just trying to elucidate the reasoning behind - at least christian - believers).

Second and most important: belief in a higher, creative power should be and remain a matter of other endeavours. It might be a philoshopical matter, a matter of general reasoning, an aesthetics matter, a metaphysical matter (in the philoshopical term), whatever BUT a science's matter. If God by nature is supposed to lie above and away the laws of this cosmos there is absolutely nothing we can do to prove his existence or non-existence. On the other hand, to my way of thinging a God, PROVED by science is NOT a God at all: he is just a phenomenon with a law guiding his actions.

The meaning of the last paragraph is my way of thinking: I do believe western world's science, having the experience of both a Catholic and a Protestant way of reasoning and dealing with it, felt the need to abolish any sign or hint of a Creative power. Following this - more or less justifiable - urge, science was seaking of a "scientific-like" theory to obscure any Godly notion and abolish it away from its feet. Evolutional theory provided just that. It seems like us scientist needed a word to use in the place of really really baaaaad words as "creation" or "god".

This word is found but not proven.

According to myself and my tradition God is to be felt not to be proven.
Dust is to be proven and not to be felt.

That's why I am participating with all you fine people to this quest!
Carbon number 7 inside my limbic's particular receptor, originated from a purple Supernova, generating illusions of explosions at a glance of your figure.

particle X
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Post by particle X »

There are actually species of microbes from the Permian period that are in Permian age salt deposits. They aren't fossils, they are viable. Once released from the salt, they come back to life. 200+ million years old.


Now that is one darn interesting piece of data ! I have not yet heard of this kind of extremophile before.
Aquila Hawk could you plz give me a link to look that up?
Thanks in advance
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum »

Whew! What a post, Verenique. First of all, I think we all sincerely appreciate the opportunity to communicate with everyone here. I know that I have enjoyed it thus far, and I apologize if my statement came across as confrontational. Let me clarify.

I had hoped that my question was as precise as possible…I addressed it to those who believe that evolution COULD NOT have occurred. Many are now using science (Fred Hoyle?) to support a religious viewpoint. As I said previously, I consider faith a thing of beauty, but when one attempts to use science to prove that a god must exist, I have to ask…why would you support a project that in part will provide evidence as to how our solar system’s evolution could have occurred? Put a bit differently, my question was simply intended to point out that if one believes the “scientific” evidence for a higher power, then why would one go so far as to assist in the discovery of evidence which could be used to the contrary? Most often the response will be for “love of science” or alternatively that “religion and science are separate”…what disturbs me is that individuals (not for the first time) are attempting to combine religion and science. Yes, a higher power could have directed any form of evolution, and this is a perfectly viable personal believe, but one that is impossible to prove!

My personal opinion is that the question of ‘god’ has little or no place in science, and is best left to an individual and their quest for meaning. However, I think that, taken literally, Genesis is about as far as you can get from an “evolutionary essence in the story of earth-making.” I agree however, that it is not a requirement for ‘god’ to have created the universe, although you might be hard pressed to find a creationist who thinks he/she/it didn’t.
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Aquila Hawk
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Post by Aquila Hawk »

particle X wrote:
There are actually species of microbes from the Permian period that are in Permian age salt deposits. They aren't fossils, they are viable. Once released from the salt, they come back to life. 200+ million years old.


Now that is one darn interesting piece of data ! I have not yet heard of this kind of extremophile before.
Aquila Hawk could you plz give me a link to look that up?
Thanks in advance
Particle X
http://www.gsajournals.org/i0091-7613-31-6-e93.html

That should give you some info on it. I first heard about it on the Science Channel.
Everyone talks about SOH CAH TOA, but no one ever talks about CHO SHA CAO.

joecor99
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The BIG BANG: Is it compatible with christianity?

Post by joecor99 »

You wrote: I'm myself a Christian, yet beleive in the Big Bang (the Big Hiss, as I think it would more accurately be called) as well as evoloution. I'm glad I'm not the only one who runs into this conflict, not that I'd wish this conflict on my worst enemy.
I would love to discuss this with you. (The two beliefs are not at all compatible.) The scientists that I quoted in my defense of creationism were actually ATHEISTS, and yet, even THEY have discovered that evolution is physically and mathematically impossible.

Also, as Christians, we believe that Jesus was God, as well as man. But if this is true, (and I believe it with all my being) then if we believe in a "BIG BANG", we are calling Jesus, the DIVINE SON OF GOD, either a liar, or a fool. He spoke about Adam, with his Original sin, as an historical figure. Also, if man simply evolved from primordial ooze, rather than being created, then there was no need for a savior, because there was no sin. If man evolved, rather than being created as a loving act of God, would God have sent His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON from heaven to live, and then die a horrible death, if it was not necessary? Either we believe the entire bible as being true, or none of it makes sense, and our faith is based on a bunch of fairy tales. :!:

Joe
And God said, Let there be light: And there was light.

Gen. 1:3

Verenique
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Post by Verenique »

Ferrum wrote: Most often the response will be for “love of science” or alternatively that “religion and science are separate”…what disturbs me is that individuals (not for the first time) are attempting to combine religion and science. Yes, a higher power could have directed any form of evolution, and this is a perfectly viable personal believe, but one that is impossible to prove!

My personal opinion is that the question of ‘god’ has little or no place in science, and is best left to an individual and their quest for meaning.
That's my exact meaning Ferrum: that the two are seperate things! I hope you did get my point which was just about the same! Faith and science don't mix in the sense the neither faith should guide science nor science should be used to judge or verdict about faith.

Unfortunately, evolution as a scientific theory fails in that it is most often than not being used to make a statement about faith and vice versa!
Carbon number 7 inside my limbic's particular receptor, originated from a purple Supernova, generating illusions of explosions at a glance of your figure.

joecor99
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Post by joecor99 »

I'm sorry about being on such a soapbox for that last post: I thought I was sending a private post to siegfried. When I saw that it was visible to everyone, I tried, without success, to delete it.

Again, I am sorry that it went to everyone. :oops:

Joe
And God said, Let there be light: And there was light.

Gen. 1:3

Leah
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Post by Leah »

I don't really believe it is a conflict.
I think intelligent design says it all. Evolution did and is occurring, it was designed to, by the creator(?), which implies an intelligence "a God" , "energy", "Great Spirit", " :idea: developer of the big bang " :?:
"Let there be Light"! :shock: :D

Mar 17, 2006
When NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe launched from Cape Canaveral in 2001, scientists dreamed of capturing "the ultimate baby picture: an image of the infant universe." Five years later, those dreams have been realized. Data collected by WMAP and made public Thursday offers the strongest evidence yet that the universe started with a Big Bang and inflated in size from a tiny speck to colossal proportions in a fraction of a second. The data also shed new light on the universe's precise age and makeup. That makes the WMAP mission a milestone in humankind's understanding of how it all began.

http://skyandtelescope.com/news/article_1697_1.asp
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Sun Tzu II
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Post by Sun Tzu II »

Yikes...

I closed my eyes for a moment and this place turns into a religious forum :shock:
Amazing how much interest specks of dust can spark

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